Carer Catalysts

Suzanne Bourne: 00:02

Hello, and welcome to Carer Catalysts, a podcast that connects innovators for unpaid carers. I'm Suzanne, cofounder and head of carer support at Mobilise. I'm also caring for my husband, Matt, to know how to young onset Parkinson's.

James Townsend: 00:15

And I'm James, CEO and cofounder of Mobilise. But perhaps more importantly, I'm son to my mum who has MS.

Suzanne Bourne: 00:22

And at Mobilise, we believe that with innovation, technology, and a bold vision, we can help carers to thrive.

James Townsend: 00:29

And we're bringing the same energy to this podcast, hearing from inspiring leaders in adult social care from across the country, listening to their stories about making transformational change for unpaid carers.

Suzanne Bourne: 00:40

So sit back, grab a cup of tea, and join us for Carer Catalysts, brought to you by Mobilise.

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 00:49

And are we live now?

James Townsend: 00:50

We are Natasha. Oh, okay. Isn't that exciting? I want to, welcome everybody to this, special episode of Carer Catalyst podcast. A particular edition in National Co Production Week, to talk about co production and how it relates to carers.

James Townsend: 01:08

My name is James Townsend. I'm cofounder and CEO of Mobilise. My more important role is a son to my mum who was diagnosed with MS when I was about 6. So caring has been a big part of my life, all the way through. We're gonna be talking about co production today and particularly looking at what it means for working with carers, the 11, 000, 000 people across the UK who have some sort of caring role with their family members, friends, or neighbors as well.

James Townsend: 01:37

Co production is really important for carers, not least because where systems of support aren't working effectively, that normally has the most impact on, the carers around somebody. But it's also important because carers are experts in so many ways. They understand the person that they're supporting, but they also see, the way systems work and how they could work even better as well. So it's a really important topic for this podcast and that's why I'm so delighted to have our panel with us today. I'm gonna ask each of you to share your name role and organization, but also how coproduction, comes up in your work.

James Townsend: 02:17

And I'm gonna come to Natasha. Can I come to you first?

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 02:20

Yeah. Absolutely. So my name is Natasha. I am a founder director of civil society consulting, and we are a non profit consultancy that has a mission to support, catalyse and empower civil society organisations which includes a lot of carers organisations. We've got a long history of working with carers organisations and co production comes into pretty much everything that we do so we provide affordable consultancy support to civil society organisations, and co production is kind of a key element of evaluations, participatory research, but we also provide free support to grassroots organisations that are led by and for marginalised communities and we work very co productively with those organisations to support them to develop and grow and use their lived experience to you know, develop into strong and sustainable organizations.

James Townsend: 03:25

Amazing. Thanks so much, Natasha. And I'm really looking forward in in our conversation to some of those insights that you will be getting from those many organizations that you guys work with about what effective co production can can really look like. Mark, can I come to you next?

Mark Dale: 03:40

You certainly can. Hello there. Good afternoon. My name's Mark. I'm from a very gray Essex at this moment in time.

Mark Dale: 03:48

My role is, first and foremost, a person with living experience, but I work with my local NHS trust as a lived experience lead for coproduction and participation. And that covers a whole range of things, working with people who have got the t shirt, but also working with those people who take up the mantle when the services close down for the night or the weekend or the bank holiday or whatever. And they have to look after the people that the NHS and social care serve, whilst they're doing their own thing. So carers are a big thing for me and also my experience of having a mom and dad who have used health and social care services have always stayed with me, so we need to get those voices heard. And the carers are a fundamental part as much as the people who use services.

Mark Dale: 04:38

So that's me.

James Townsend: 04:40

Absolutely. Thanks so much, Mark. Really great to have you with us. And, Charlotte, can I turn to you and and your experience of working with Carefree as well?

Charlotte Newman: 04:50

My name is Charlotte. I'm the CEO of Carefree, which is a charity that enables unpaid carers to access a break that's been donated by the hotel industry. And, you know, having done that kind of start up journey for the past 6 and a half years, coproduction has taken many forms as we've built up the initiative. But now I think it's about taking the opportunity of we've got 25, 000 registered users and how do you do coproduction at that sort of scale, and that's really what we've been experimenting with

Mark Dale: 05:17

a lot more

Charlotte Newman: 05:17

over the last few months that I'll be speaking about today.

James Townsend: 05:20

Amazing. Thank you, Charlotte. And I think that question of scale is something that will resonate with Suzanne, my cofounder at Mobilize. Suzanne, would you like to say a word to introduce yourself?

Suzanne Bourne: 05:30

Hello. Yeah. Hi. I'm Suzanne, cofounder at Mobilise and head of carer support. I'm also caring for my husband who has young onset Parkinson's and mother-in-law and things as well.

Suzanne Bourne: 05:40

So those caring roles get me involved in coproduction in other ways too. But yeah. So on a day to day basis, myself and my team are kinda there with carers in our community, hanging out and chatting, and just making sure at every opportunity and in every way, we're involving carers in in what we're doing together, really, and, finding different ways to make that happen that that already work for all sorts of carers.

James Townsend: 06:04

Thanks so much, Suzanne. Now, we're gonna be talking about, the ways that we can innovate for co production. I'm particularly mindful that many people listening to the Carer Catalyst podcast are commissioners or carers leads working to develop and improve services, particularly for carers. With that in mind, I wanna start off really with a question about whether we can, whether we can innovate for co production. And and Mark, I know you're a big big fan of co production generally.

James Townsend: 06:39

Do you see this as something where we should just be getting more people to do, what is already out there and some of the existing thinking, or should we be looking to to change and adapt and iterate and improve the coproduction that's out there?

Mark Dale: 06:52

We we need to we need to change and adapt to where change and adaption needs to happen. I think that a lot of things have occurred where that we look at coproduction. First of all, it's a very dirty work in some cases, you know, sort of because people in the in the mind don't understand what coproduction is. A lot of people think that it's a lot of time. It's a lot of money.

Mark Dale: 07:14

It's a lot of investment. And, of course, the way that services are run now, they'd much prefer to sort of pay out on frontline services, etcetera, and they forget that coproduction, especially cocreation and codesign would be really good. In the aspects of actually innovation, I think that every bit of coproduction I've seen, and that's involvement of carers or people who use services, has always been innovative because it's been innovative, if I can say it correctly, within their own areas. I've never seen anything that has been the same old even though some people said, you know, maybe we could piggyback onto that organization or that organization. But I think that what we need to do is we need to get a bit smarter in the way that we do coproduction.

Mark Dale: 08:00

I think we also need to look at, as I said, the investment of coproduction, especially for people who are carers. I speak to a lot of carers who don't and cannot be part of coming to meetings and coming to certain things because they're looking after the people they're caring for. And it's like, well, hold on for a minute. How can I do this and do that when the very fact that I'm looking after this person, I've not got 20 minutes, let alone an hour to actually spend to coproduce? So we need to start saying how can we actually break down those barriers and I suppose really be a little bit innovative there.

Mark Dale: 08:36

But I think that what we need to do is we need to sort of get the people in the room and actually say, how can we suit you to create coproductions to be workable for you and for us together. And if your commissioners are out there listening, you know, sort of, have an open mind. That's 1 of the big things we need to have, an open mind.

James Townsend: 08:54

Mark, that's really interesting. For the benefit of those listening, this is not a fully scripted podcast, but I Mark, if if I had scripted what you're about to say, I couldn't have done it better because, it links really well into the question I wanted to ask you, Suzanne, because you, you're talking to the the community of carers, in mobile. There's about 80, 000 people, on on the platform. What are you seeing that well, is co production working for carers? Drawing on Mark's point about, you know, 20 minutes can someone homes be a luxury.

James Townsend: 09:29

Is are the existing approaches to coproduction really working for the carers that you're talking to?

Suzanne Bourne: 09:35

Well, I think, no. It's a it's a horrible big answer there. There's lots of stuff, as Mark says. There's lots of stuff that is going really, really well. And probably what you hear about most is the things where it's been most painful and most difficult or where there's been the most obstacles and barriers, or carers have just felt like it's not made a big difference.

Suzanne Bourne: 09:53

They weren't heard. It was tokenistic, etcetera. Now I think we hear about that a lot because that's where the problems are, but I I know there's lots of innovative stuff going on out there. But we are still hearing of, you know, focus groups that people can't get to that are then canceled last minute, you know, that that kind of there was the same people in the room that as last time they went to an event like this and the same conversations were happening and, you know, that kind of frustration. And and quite often, you know, some of those people contributing in those coproduction events are still massively valuable.

Suzanne Bourne: 10:28

The fact that they've been involved in lots of things and have lots of experience and have the time to give in those situations. So I think it's not about shutting down those things that are working for some carers. It's about adding on and improving things. And I think what I'm hearing from carers is they need it needs to take up less of their time, be more easily communicated. They need to be well prepared, and and they need to feel some sort of benefit from it.

Suzanne Bourne: 10:51

And not just a transactional benefit, but I got a voucher, and that was nice. But that real relationship building, a sense of purpose, being part of something, making a difference, that that kind of loop needs to be closed a bit as well. But I hear also about lots of different things being tried as well, and I'm, you know, excited by some of the things we've tried at Mobilize. But I think there's still so much to learn both in this sector and that we can learn from other sectors too.

James Townsend: 11:15

Absolutely. And and, Natasha, I want to come to you on on that point because, there there's there's such a balance, isn't there, that, you know, we that it's not a binary situation. As as Suzanne says, you know, we have some people who may be, familiar faces in the co production story. And actually they have something really valuable to offer alongside reaching new people as well. And Mark earlier said, you know, this is every time we do co production this is innovative and this is new because it's in a new setting.

James Townsend: 11:48

Are you seeing that trend as well or are you seeing that there tends to be, a pretty established forms of co production from the organizations you're working with?

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 11:57

Well, I suppose I'm kind of tempted to highlight that it's not necessarily completely a bad thing if you've got lots of the same people coming back because, there's a kind of iterative process and I think co production works really well when it's iterative right so you have a few rounds and people coming back with new ideas, kind of on a on a second, engagement. And I guess I also kind of attempted to highlight a real positive in the carer space that's maybe different from organisations working with different stakeholders. Is there so many people who work in carers organizations have so much lived experience themselves, and I think that's like a real strength of, yeah the kind of subsector of carers organisations because it's kind of more integrated, you know, it's less like, siloed so you you get the information here and you bring it over here. The people interpreting the information that they're gathering have that lived experience themselves, and I think that's a real strength, of carers' organisations when it comes to co production, if that makes

James Townsend: 13:09

sense. It it really does. Certainly, it resonates with me. And, Mark, you mentioned just at the beginning there about co production sometimes being a dirty word. And, 1 of the things I think 1 of the misunderstandings that can happen is the idea that, it then means that the, we hand we hand over complete control to lay people who, who have experience of the of of drawing on services, but then, commissioners or carers leads are are not allowed to to input in the process.

James Townsend: 13:39

And, actually, Natasha, as you described there, there's there's that great piece of integration where you can throw the conversation from from side to side and actually learn a lot from each other, and and everybody's contributing. Charlotte, I wonder, you're working with so well, how how many, carer supporting organizations are part of your network now? It's a huge number, isn't it?

Charlotte Newman: 14:00

Yeah. There's, 60 care support organizations that are referring carers to us, and then we also have a self referral pathway, which is, you know, signing up about a 1000 new carriers every month.

James Townsend: 14:10

So you see both sides of this, both the, the service provider as it may be, but also the service user. And and what is working and what what what might you like to see from innovation around co production?

Charlotte Newman: 14:25

I honestly think that your coproduction work should not be divorced from your everyday operation and that we need to talk about coproduction in the context of customer service, you know, that you're doing towards your beneficiaries at the same time. So for us, we've built a huge amount of live feedback loops with carers. So, you know, every interaction on a problem they might be having with the platform, an idea that they have, Everything is logged in terms of live data that we're kind of bringing in that's then discussed by the team. And it gives us, you know, so many kind of quick wings of improvements that we can make to our service. It's all based on real user experience.

Charlotte Newman: 15:02

And I think it just it can be easy when you make it easy because you've got the systems there to support your team to be able to deliver it. And I think that's where, you know, organizations need to do the investment, not just on kind of convening coproduction, but also thinking about it in a live and operational context and and what they can do within their organization so that, you know, information really is captured and held and processed appropriately.

James Townsend: 15:27

And, of course, you're a digital provider and and so so it it comes naturally to you, that that we should have those tech systems in place, but it's increasingly something that care and supporting organizations are looking to develop a new skill set in. And Charlotte, I wonder if I can come to you for the next round to to lead us in the next round, of a question because coproduction is embedded into the DNA of Carefree. So you're you're doing so many different elements of coproduction. Can you give us some examples of maybe something that has worked and something that that you've really struggled with and you would you would take us constructive feedback, if anybody were trying to do something similar.

Charlotte Newman: 16:11

Yeah. I think, honestly, the thing that hasn't worked is our ability to convince funders that the need for a carer break is a legitimate need. And I think that's a big block that we that we experience in terms of, you know, how, when it comes to kind of strategic priorities that are set around kind of, care interventions and preventative work. And, you know, when you've done a lot of work to kind of identify a need that carers have and you're trying to articulate that, that when people choose not to believe you. So I think that's the the piece that we get quite stuck around and and don't feel very able to tackle.

Charlotte Newman: 16:48

What has worked for us is being very, very careful about when we are contacting carers and on what basis and, you know, for appropriate information. So it's not often that we would send out a big survey to the whole day, for example. But when we do, when we did 1 a few weeks ago, you know, and it was on it was to people who hadn't taken a break with us yet, and we had 4 and a half 1000 responses. We had 400 responses within 4 minutes, and it was extraordinary to be flooded with such, a live and interactive database of people who are really there and really want to speak to you. And that was a really, really important piece for us to kind of see and interpret and learn from.

Charlotte Newman: 17:30

And what we were immediately picking up from that was actually the barriers to carers taking a break in terms of our users wasn't, you know, things so much to do with the system. Actually, a lot of it was about the constraints of carriers feeling saying, I feel guilty taking time away. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. And, you know, those are things that are kind of user behavior based that you can provide people with more information and resources and support to get them break ready. And we know that now, because we've heard from them about it.

Charlotte Newman: 17:57

And that's what's important.

James Townsend: 17:59

Really interesting. So 2 key takeaways in there. 1 is the challenge about creating that case for change and making sure that carers are involved in and and sharing their data for for why this is important. But then your your second point there about, really being able to engage with people in a very intentional way, getting a really positive response. And, of course, there's something about accessibility.

James Townsend: 18:24

So being able to just ping out a a quick survey rather than going through kind of 20, or the 200 questions, in 1 survey, you know, makes a big difference. Suzanne, can I come to you? You mentioned some of the things that that we're doing at at Mobilize. What for you is really effective, and and what would you want to do differently?

Suzanne Bourne: 18:46

1 hugely effective thing has been community listening. Just having those ongoing conversations where we're listening and, you know, seeing what what what's concerning people, what people are struggling with, what solutions people are finding, and using all of that learning constantly. So some purists might not describe that as coproduction, and the carers that are involved in that don't always kind of think about that as being their contribution. But I know that's a big reason why people enjoy participating in the community because they know that it's not just the 1 or 2 carers benefiting from that. It's a whole community benefiting and a legacy that they're creating that goes beyond that conversation.

Suzanne Bourne: 19:22

And they see they see that happening. They can see that content turning up that shared their great ideas, and they can see the the sort of switches we've made to sort of solve a particular problem and things. So they can see that happening. But but, yeah, whether that's called coproduction or not, for me, it is because it's carers involved in what we're shaping. And that's why from the very beginning, we knew a community was really important to have at the heart of Mobilise.

Suzanne Bourne: 19:45

So that's been important. You talked also about things that haven't worked. So we've, we've had some success where we have our couples. We've had some really great conversations, and they're like sort of instant focus groups with a variety of people joining them. And they've been really good to get a little bit deeper into things and explore topics more.

Suzanne Bourne: 20:01

But we tried 1 on looking at vision and looking further ahead, and we had some sort of questions and activities that we thought would generate some thinking. And what we realized afterwards is actually we needed to approach this a little bit more formally and with a bit more forethought and give people a chance to think because we kind of sprung it on them. And it was something they just never thought about. Like, what's possible beyond what you can see? Not what have you seen elsewhere that you want to see happening here, but just imagine, you know, there was limitless budget.

Suzanne Bourne: 20:30

Imagine we were Carlsberg creating the best carer support in the world. What would that look like? And we just sprung it on them, and it really stumped them. And what I was also quite sad about that was that they felt they'd let us down as well. So that was us that had made the mistake there, and we'd learned from that.

Suzanne Bourne: 20:44

So it's important to go back to them, and we'll try again. You know, that wasn't a failure. That was a learning, and we'll we'll try and do better with that as well. So, I'm really we're really fortunate how generous the community are to let us learn along the way as well. So it's not that we never make mistakes.

James Townsend: 20:59

Yeah. And and, so 2 really key points in there that that sometimes coproduction doesn't look like a session that begins at 2 and ends at 3 and you sit around a table with a flip chart. It can be ongoing process that we may not be aware explicitly is happening, but can be built in. And that there are some questions that need different forms of co production, and that we can design into them. Mark, you've done so much of this.

James Townsend: 21:26

Are there any bits of coproduction that you're really proud of that you want to, share and would love to see more of?

Mark Dale: 21:33

Just there's there's loads. 1 of the things he's the point of, with regards to working with young carers because my background is as was being a young carer, you know. Unfortunately, it's been a long long time ago now, you know. I certainly don't, put myself into the young age bracket, you know. I'm coming into another point later on this year where I go to another section of the diversity numbers.

Mark Dale: 21:56

I go up that next point and I think, oh, no. You know, sort of here I'm going again. But I've worked with some young carers and it's been fantastic because what we've seen is we've seen these people, these these young people who have been, you know, doing what they do because they, you know, let's let's put it down to the brass tacks. A lot of these people, a lot of people who care do it because of love. You do you look after your mom.

Mark Dale: 22:21

You look after your dad. You look after your brother, your sister, etcetera, because that's the way it is. Now we've seen these people that often are, you know, sort of they don't get a lot of say. They they get told to do this, do that. I saw these people coming into a room.

Mark Dale: 22:37

And finally, we actually said, what do you wanna see? What is it that is and very much in a sense saying about, you know, sort of if there was an unlimited source of money and unlimited blue sky thing, what would you like to see? And sometimes it it it was so weird because it wasn't that, oh, I want this, this, and this. It was I want a bit of time to myself, you know, just a little bit of time. I want to have, just something that would help me.

Mark Dale: 23:06

So maybe someone to phone when something's going wrong, you know, at a certain particular time. So when we said about, you know, you've got so much money to spend, etcetera, the money was nothing. It it wasn't about that. It was just something that could be changed and it will be very easy. So those are really good things for me which I love.

Mark Dale: 23:27

But 1 of the big things which, you know, to to offset that, and I think that we all do it, I think that 1 of the downfalls of coproduction is assumptions. And I think the assumptions of what we think we're doing in the right space at the right time, often isn't that right. And it's what we need to do is actually sort of and I hate saying it, think outside of the box because I'm 1 of these people that really don't like those platitudes sort of thinking outside the box. But what we need to do is we need to go with that blank page. Okay.

Mark Dale: 23:59

We might have a little bit of a germ of an idea, but we get a blank page and then we get people in the room, new faces and old faces, and people and faces that we don't often see as well. And actually say to them, right, this is what we wanna do. Let's start to design something. And but the assumptions always come first and I have to try and stop myself every time I'm doing a project because all of a sudden it's I'm assuming that, well, that'd be great. That'd be great.

Mark Dale: 24:26

And actually, it's not. It might be great for me, but it's not great for the people I'm trying to get in around and and talk to. So It's bit of a long winded answer. Sorry. But but

James Townsend: 24:37

Such an interesting discipline being able to to almost let go and and just let the conversation go where it will rather than bringing our pre existing, views into this. Thank you so much, Mark.

Mark Dale: 24:48

I'm a human.

James Townsend: 24:50

Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. So I I think 1 of the real challenges is, Mark, you mentioned about being ambitious and and coming in with a blank sheet of paper. And all of this sounds really attractive, but, of course, it can be a challenge.

James Townsend: 25:07

And, Natasha, can I come to you and ask, in the organizations that you're working with who are so often, organizations with relatively small budgets, They're really kind of close to their community, but they're not big, unwieldy organizations? What are the challenges for them that you see in in deploying co production really effectively?

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 25:31

Yeah. I mean, I think we can't ignore the obvious 1 of resources and time and capacity. And I think potentially what happens a lot is, you know the process of co production takes a long time, pilots take a long time and piloting I think is a really important part of co production and sort of momentum can be lost over time. But I also kind of wanna come back to, Suzanne, something I feel like you were hinting at, which is sort of don't let perfection be the enemy of good. Because I feel like that's kind of what you were, getting out with, with what you're saying.

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 26:09

And it's kind of a bit of a culture thing as well. So let co production be a bit imperfect and some co production is better than no co production. So kind of, yeah, a slightly a slightly different thinking pattern, but also a shift away from, I guess, there's a lot of bureaucracy, and we all get a bit stuck in this kind of, very process oriented way of thinking. And I think to try and speed up pilots or speed up the process, there can be a kind of just simplifying the whole thing in a way as well. So really what coproduction is is listening to people and kind of understanding them as humans, and it's quite simple in many many ways.

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 26:56

So I think, I I think leaning into that can also make a lot of difference, and basically, you know, more trust and more agility from, from, yeah, moving into a slightly different less less process oriented culture around co production.

James Townsend: 27:16

Some really interesting points there about culture, Natasha. Thank you. Charlotte, you're working with so many, different providers, and Natasha's just described something that is really attractive. It doesn't need to be perfect, and sometimes it's as simple as listening to people as humans. So what are the what are the challenges that you're seeing, organizations come up against when it comes to to deploying co production?

Charlotte Newman: 27:46

Confidence is a big part of it. It's it's, you know, having you know, that there's a real like, it can be intimidating to kinda host a workshop or, you know, suddenly you're speaking in front of group of people, you know, putting together the schedule for it and and the invites. And, you know, I think there's just, you know, there's a there's a first step there that's really, really kinda confidence based and and people feeling like they really can do it and that it's gonna it's gonna go well. You know, it's gonna be useful and it's gonna be valuable. I guess another side to it, James, I would say is is that when you're running these things or certainly the experience of people who are the facilitators, is you you can't go into these things expecting that the the participants in the room are going to trust you.

Charlotte Newman: 28:32

And you may well be on the receiving end of, you know, some aggression, ill feeling, you know, anger that's directed towards a system that kinda, you know, blows straight onto you. And I think there's you know, it takes a level of kinda compassion and resilience to separate yourself from that, to separate yourself from some of the really, really hard stories that you end up hearing and and and feeling. And so it's you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't underestimate the there's the confidence level of getting up to doing it. There's the actual facilitation part, which can be quite emotionally intensive. And then you also have to decompress and find a way to kind of, you know, walk forwards with your with, you know, feeling feeling comfortable with everything that's been said and everything that's happened.

James Townsend: 29:19

I I think that's a really insightful point there, Charlotte, because the confidence that it's gonna be fine is really important. And part of that is being confident that it's gonna work, but also being comfortable with the fact that it might not. And that you might have a messy session that feels really frustrating. And that that is part of the learning process because this this this can be, subtle in terms of getting it right. Mark, you're particularly involved with a lot of NHS organizations and, there are particular pressures around the NHS.

James Townsend: 29:50

I wonder what the challenges are from from your perspective.

Mark Dale: 29:55

I just wanted to say, first of all, being messy is really good as well sometimes. It's really, really helpful because if you get go to something and it's completely constructed and you've got it there, it's good to actually have the plan b and c and d. But, yeah, a a lot of a lot of things that I come up with are actually the the time constraints, you know, sort of well, we're we're in AAA target, you know, sort of we need to have it done by tomorrow. Well, I've done for a minute. Why didn't you tell us about this last week?

Mark Dale: 30:22

You know, sort of if, you know, we we're all got time commitments. We've all time constraints. I think 1 of the big things and and just a moment ago, we just heard in the sense of sometimes we're going to sort of all, you know, like meetings or or forums or whatever, and there's a lot of anger in the room. 9 times out of 10, that anger has actually been brought forward because of things were not done in a timely manner or, you know, it's it's more ruling against the light of the system. I think that what we need to do is we need to have a little bit of a time management sort of structure.

Mark Dale: 30:54

I think that if there's ideas that come about, then sort of get to the people that you wanna get to very timely and and in the first place. But 9 times out of 10, it's a and and 1 of the big things that we see, especially within NHS organizations, which I love. I love every NHS organization. It is wonderful. But it is that fear of the power imbalance is gonna change.

Mark Dale: 31:15

All of a sudden, you've got the carers and the service users, and they're gonna be taking over the wards and units. It's not that. Coproduction is a partnership. At the end of the day, if you just look at coproduction as something, it's actually working together to make my job, if you're a professional, easier and make the services that you're providing for me so much better. That's all it is.

Mark Dale: 31:35

But sometimes we're so so sort of hit up on, you know, sort of the the power imbalance to go away. And really what we just should do is chill out.

James Townsend: 31:45

Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. That that feels like a a realist perspective. Thank you, Mark.

James Townsend: 31:50

Susan, I wonder if we were gonna be really ambitious with co production and imagined a world where, co production was at the core of so many services, What would need to change in order for us to get there?

Suzanne Bourne: 32:04

Oh, that's what's big. Again, it's that big question about the future, isn't it, that puts us on spot. But I think in my heart, there's something about it being fun and about this being a really enjoyable and rich experience for everyone involved that we take any dryness out of it, any, any of those. The the barriers that yeah. Not just for the for the participants, but for us organizing it as well.

Suzanne Bourne: 32:27

Whatever's stopping us doing it, let's look at those and kinda crash through some of those. Let's be comfortable with the mess and the imperfection. Let's really welcome in some fun and make this an enjoyable and rich experience. But, also, there's there's something about having that right sort of variety of voices in the room. And I could re really easily switch to talking about diversity and inclusion and accessibility in a very kind of, oh gosh.

Suzanne Bourne: 32:50

Yes. And now we've got to remember to do that as well. But, actually, seeing that as that means variety. That means you're gonna have such a mixture of people you're listening to and hanging out with. That means you're making it easy for people.

Suzanne Bourne: 33:02

That's all it is. It's just making it easy for people and, and welcoming. You know, it's that being whether you're whether you're bringing someone to an event, asking them to answer a question, or just kind of engage in a conversation or some or some small thing that you will or try something out, that you're just being really super friendly and welcoming. It's like you're bringing them into your house and you're you know, that sort of hospitality type thing around it so that everyone's getting a really rich and enjoyable experience straight away. So that if if we get a really good outcome, that's brilliant.

Suzanne Bourne: 33:35

If it really makes a big difference to the future, that's brilliant. But if nothing else, we have we have it was a positive experience for everybody. Because quite often, what you see in those coproduction events is also connections being made between people, making new friends that what they chatted about over the coffee as they were leaving or when they went off to get the bus or around the edges when waiting to start a Zoom call, or even just the discussion in the community around the topic is all the acts extra benefits that are being so I think so if we take coproduction too seriously, we we stop ourselves. So, yeah, it's that making it more fun, more of a rich experience for everybody, participants, and for all of us getting involved behind the scenes as well. I think that's gonna be

James Townsend: 34:14

interesting stuff.

Suzanne Bourne: 34:15

And, yeah, innovative doesn't need to be complicated and clever.

James Townsend: 34:18

Absolutely. There's something, that really, resonates for me there about the idea that, this should this should be valuable for the people participating more than just the 10 pound book voucher, but you should everybody in the room should feel like they've got something from that conversation as we go. We're coming to the end of our time, and I and I wonder if we can come around. And just if there's 1 thing that we wanted to take away from the conversation today and keep in our minds for the rest of, coproduction week, what would it be? And, Natasha, can I come to you first for your your key takeaway really?

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 34:54

Yes. Oh, no. I've got a few, but, I think something I would like to highlight that I didn't get a moment to highlight, it's just, I suppose that the reason co production is so important is, it's it's short term losses, long term gains. So I think it's not, you know, it's not this sort of hassle that we need to do. If we get coproduction right and integrate it, we save so much time downstream.

Natasha Ereira-Guyer: 35:23

So I think that's a really important thing to remember, that it's not, you know, it's not a formality. It's not an additional thing. It's, if if you design a service with and for carers, and the service is gonna be better, it's gonna last longer, and it's gonna, you know, the meat kind of slips off the bone, much more over time, and I think that's worth really highlighting.

James Townsend: 35:46

Yeah. Yeah. If you think all of the hours that we spend, across our sector scrabbling around to try and get more carers to engage with the services that are available, If if we're not having to do that because the services are so magnetically attractive, that that can be a real time saving as we go. Charlotte, how about you for your final reflection there?

Charlotte Newman: 36:09

Yeah. Really believing that coproduction can be a live thing that happens every day in your organization, and that every time you're engaging with a carer, there's an opportunity to learn something new.

James Townsend: 36:19

Yep. We can break it down to those those everyday, interactions that can be so powerful. And, Mark, how about you?

Mark Dale: 36:27

It's a learning it's a learning curve, and every day I learn something. And just try it. Just dip your toes in the water. I want also plenty of good strong Yorkshire tea and some biscuits, whatever biscuit you want. Take that away from you, and I tell you what, coproduction is a breeze.

James Townsend: 36:45

Absolutely. That that a really practical tip there. We love that. Suzanne, can I come to you finally? Yeah.

Suzanne Bourne: 36:50

I love that 1. Bring out the good biscuits. That's definitely a note to coproduction. But I think just picking on when Mark and Natasha talked about imperfection and messiness being okay, but I think, actually, it's it's okay when you've built good relationships. If if if you're trying to be professional, messiness and and, imperfection don't work so well.

Suzanne Bourne: 37:10

You can feel embarrassed and uncomfortable, and people will be frustrated. If you get those relationships right, then you've got much more flexibility. And that that's just helped me to realize that, actually. We may have made a mistake, but boy did it show us how generous our community are, but that we could do that.

James Townsend: 37:26

Amazing. Well, can I thank you all, so much for those, really insightful contributions around, coproduction, and what that can mean for carers and and those of us who are creating services for carers? Sitting at the heart of National Coproduction Week is a really relevant conversation for our sector as we're going along. Thanks to everybody listening to the Carer Catalyst podcast. We are having conversations about how we shape and reform services for carers all the time.

James Townsend: 37:55

So please do subscribe. And if you have any ideas or examples of great co production that you'd like to share, please do be in touch with us in the comments underneath or directly to 1 of us in in your DMs as well. Really exciting to see you all. Thank you very much, and have a very happy co production week. Thanks for joining us with Carer Catalyst brought to you by Mobilise.

James Townsend: 38:20

Do subscribe to this podcast wherever you normally get them from, and look forward to the next episode.