Carer Catalysts

0:02 Hello and welcome to Carer Catalysts, a podcast that connects innovators for unpaid carers.
0:08 I'm Suzanne Co-founder and Head of Carer Support at Mobilise.
0:12 I'm also caring for my husband, Matt, who has young onset Parkinson's.
And I'm James, CEO and Co-Founder of Mobilise.
0:19 But perhaps more importantly, I'm son to my mum, who has MS and at Mobilise we believe that with innovation, technology and a bold vision, we can help carers to thrive.
0:30 And we're bringing the same energy to this podcast by hearing from inspiring leaders in adult social care from across the country listening to their stories about making transformational change for unpaid carers.
0:41 So sit back, grab a cup of tea and join us for Carer Catalysts brought to you by Mobilise.
0:50 So welcome, everyone.
0:51 And thanks for taking time out of your day to join us for this Carer Catalysts podcast.
0:56 It's really great to be here together doing this, James.
0:59 And you've been chatting with our interviewee this week, Sarah McClinton.
1:03 So tell us a bit about who she is.
1:05 Well, she's a bit of a megastar, really.
1:07 So Sarah used to be, at the time of recording, she was president of ADASS.
1:13 The Association of Directors of Adult Social Care, so now past president.
1:17 But the day job for Sarah is Director of Health and Adult Services at the Royal Borough of Greenwich.
1:24 So loads of really valuable stuff in her professional life.
1:29 And she's come to those positions with a load of different roles in public health and care. But it's really interesting.
1:37 In the last year, as president of ADASS, Sarah has been a real champion for unpaid carers and particularly making sure that we're constantly striving to do better and to make sure that we're really honouring the voice of carers and the experience of carers. When it comes to social care as well, that's great.
1:55 And I've had a quick listen to the interview, and her depth of experience really comes across, actually, and I really particularly enjoyed her reflections on different types of innovation throughout her career, not just at this stage.
2:07 She's been involved in a really hands-on way, developing new things and as well as more recently, creating the environment for that to happen in the team she manages and the strategies she's responsible for Well, let's have a listen.
2:19 I started by asking Sarah about what it was that got her into social care in the first place.
2:26 So, I wonder how you've spent your entire career. I think in social care of one sort or another.

2:33 I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what brought you into social work in the first place.
2:38 Yeah, I have spent most of my career in Social Care.
2:41 I've also had jobs that have covered broader responsibilities in local government.
2:48 So volunteering and community sector commissioning and those sorts of things And also I had a spell as a civil servant, so working very much, with the NHS on mental health policy.
3:00 But I guess in terms of what brought me into this kind of work, I was very idealistic and felt, growing up, quite affronted by seeing inequalities and social injustice.
3:12 And, I guess I wanted to change the world.
3:17 So I came into social work. That was the route into the career that I've had.
3:24 I was a very idealistic kind of young social worker, and one of my first jobs was working, working with young offenders.
3:35 So people who were in the criminal justice system and working on a scheme that was providing alternatives to custody.
3:43 So it felt like young people were, you know, potentially had made mistakes in their lives that were really more to do with the kind of social and economic circumstances that they were in.
3:52 It was very much about giving people kind of more chances in life.
3:58 And then I also did some work on women's reproductive rights. Being a strong feminist, and then one of my first sort of qualified social work jobs was working with people with HIV and AIDS in the early nineties.
4:15 So when HIV is kind of first hit West London.
4:20 And there weren't any services that were available for people. Our home helps refused to go in and see people with HIV and AIDS.
4:29 And It was very much a time when there was, therefore, freedom within that to create new services.
4:37 And there was a lot of peer to peer support that we developed.
4:40 And much more personalised and individual responses to people so very much the kind of personalization that we have an agenda that is talked about a lot. Now, we were, you know, as a young social worker, that was my experience.
How do you innovate?
How do you respond to people's needs?
4:57 When the existing kind of traditional services really weren't there for them.
5:02 So, so, yeah, that was my sort of introduction to social work and very much kind of deeply embedded in innovation.
5:12 It's very interesting that you mentioned that period of time in history around HIV and AIDS because I wonder whether you've seen any echoes of that massive disruption to existing services in the COVID-19 pandemic.
5:29 That gives you the opportunity to try new things and do so really quickly.
5:34 Yeah, I think there were definitely parallels that we saw during the pandemic when, you know, technological advance was, you know, rapidly adopted.
5:41 We all were working from home.
5:43 Actually, I wasn't working from home in the early phases of the pandemic, because we weren't set up to do so.
5:49 So going into the office every day, but I think some of those ways of working and people being able to be much more connected through technology in their daily lives, you know, was was, was was kind of rapidly, took us forward.
6:07 In terms of, some of the ways of working. Definitely.
6:12 You mentioned a moment ago feeling very idealistic when you started out in your career.
6:17 Ha, ha.
6:17 Have you found that sort of rubbed off with the grubby reality of getting things done or or are you more inspired for the future?
6:24 At this point, I still feel inspired.
6:28 And I feel that that sort of, you know, fight for social injustice and that's what social care is all about.
6:39 And so I think with colleagues that that is still what drives us and and and working at a national level, they do.
6:47 I think it's that really keeps you in touch with a lot of that, but equally you know, talking to front line staff and people who work in Greenwich.
6:57 You know that that's that people still have that fire in their belly, so to speak.
7:01 I think that that is very much still there.
7:05 I obviously, you know, the way systems operate often, you can feel like you're in a sausage factory.
7:14 Almost.
7:15 And how do you, you know, how do you keep hold of that sense of social care is actually about human kindness.
7:20 It's about how we help and support people to live their lives in a full way in the way that they want to live them and holding on to all of that, I think is really important.
7:32 Yeah, it's really interesting.
7:33 I was so pleased to be with you guys at the NCASC conference in Manchester in November last year, the first time I've spent a lot of time with a large number of Directors of Adult Social Care in the same room.
7:45 And it was so striking that, you know, there could be a mood of real depression, given all of the challenges in social care.
7:53 But certainly my takeaway was that there's a strength of common purpose and a really really exciting vision for what this could be, over the next few years, was something very exciting.
8:05 So you've come on to a podcast about innovation for unpaid carers.
8:10 I wonder, so I assume that you think it's important.
8:13 Can you say a little bit about why you think it's important to innovate specifically for unpaid carers?
8:19 Well, I think the first thing to say is, it's really important that we pay attention to the needs of unpaid carers.
8:24 Unpaid carers do a huge amount.
8:26 They do a fabulous and really amazing job.
8:29 Often that goes unrecognised, and they're not valued as much as they need to be.
8:37 We all know that the social care system is very much under strain, very stretched, and what that can mean is that unpaid carers are being asked to do more and more to fill in the gaps.
8:48 That's not right.
8:49 We obviously need to continue to argue for the system as a whole to be better resourced, but I think that within that, as directors of adult social services, we need to be paying attention, as I say, to the needs of carers and recognising how much they do.
9:09 I think that, in terms of, understanding what matters most to carers and then thinking about new ways and innovating.
9:17 Our responses to that, it is also really important.
9:22 We expect more and more of carers, but they should expect of us that we're thinking and working harder to find ways to support them and finding new ways to support them.
9:34 And often that can be about, you know, enabling people to be more connected to respond to that feeling that I am the only person that is experiencing these feelings.
9:46 So you know the importance of peer support, which you know I talked about earlier.
9:50 Really?
9:50 In terms of my early career but it's those things that can really tip people over the edge.
9:56 And how do we think about different ways of being able to support people emotionally, but also practically. And, you know, obviously the current cost of living crisis adds even more pressure to people's lives, including the lives of unpaid carers.
10:13 So finding practical ways and ways of supporting people financially I think, is important.
10:19 But also that emotional support is really critical, and finding new ways to do that. It's really interesting that you describe their finding new ways to look at things.
10:30 And I wonder sometimes when we speak to carers or we speak to people, in the provision of services, the theme seems to be, well, if we just funded the existing services properly, we would get the kind of outcome we're looking for.
10:47 How do you respond to that observation?
10:50 Well, as I said, I do think it's important that we fund the adult social care system properly and that we pay attention to some of the issues in relation to the paid workforce.
11:02 Because as we know, there's currently a huge shortage in terms of, , people like, you know, literally not having enough pairs of hands to be able to , provide services to the level that we need to.
11:14 And I think that comes back to sort of pay and recognition to a large extent.
11:19 But I think that, if we just keep on, we can't really just keep doing more of the same. If we just kept on trying to provide the sorts of traditional services.
11:29 Then I don't think we're necessarily responding to, what carers are telling us and
what carers feel would be, is what they need.
11:38 So a lot of the traditional services are focused on, you know, respite or support for the person that's being cared for.
11:46 And I think the Care Act is a great piece of legislation, and within that that gives us the scope and and and really the duty to provide support for unpaid carers in their own rights.
11:59 But I think that being able to do that in imaginative ways in ways that really do respond to what will make a difference to that individual in their particular set set of circumstances is what we need to do so that that again kind of underlines the need to kind of keep innovating and thinking of what's going to be important for that individual. And how might we facilitate support for them that is going to make a difference to their lives?
12:29 I'm so pleased you brought up the Care Act.
12:31 I'm a huge fan.
12:33 I'm not yet gonna get a t-shirt printed on it, but, the more we've been working on that through Mobilise the more it feels like a great piece of legislation in so many ways.
12:46 You mentioned just at the beginning there, Sarah, the importance of, kind of making sure that we give the proper attention to unpaid carers, and I and I wonder how do you guys manage that in Greenwich?
12:58 Because you've got so many competing priorities that you've got to deal with.
13:03 How do you make sure on a weekly monthly basis, that you're really engaging with the needs of unpaid carers?
13:13 So in Greenwich we've recently published a Carers’ Strategy.
13:19 So we worked with our local organisations, but also with carers locally, to understand what matters to them and then look at how we could be more innovative, really, in terms of what our offer was.
13:32 So there are a kind of kind of number of things that came out through that.
13:38 And, I was talking to a carer recently who has an autistic son who was moving through from children into adulthood.
13:48 And she was saying to me that she had a social worker come to visit her to sort of talk about adult services and what that might look like.
13:56 This was, you know, her son has complex needs, but has been, you know, looked after at home with lots of family support as well as some services.
14:08 But she said what she expected when the social worker came around was a bit of a thank you for Haven't you done a good job so far?
14:15 Recognising all of the sacrifices that she had to make in her life and you know what they'd done.
14:24 How much they've really done to manage and support their son and his needs in a way that could easily have ended up with a very different set of circumstances and him living away from the family in institutional care.
14:40 And so she said one of the things that she was expecting was a bit of a recognition and a thank you that they'd done such a good job.
14:47 And that wasn't quite her experience.
14:51 You know, often the system that we operate is very defensive and very much about what, what people can or can't have and often focused on what they can't have.
15:03 And actually, what she was really needing was that recognition and that recognition and valuing.
15:10 So I think innovation is not always about fancy tech.
15:13 It's also about how we make sure that the system that we operate is based on human kindness and understanding what people's needs are and and and and recognising and valuing carers.
15:25 But there were other things that we sort of developed through that strategy.
15:29 And one was a relatively small pot of money, which was then made available for innovation bids.
15:38 So that could be individual carers or small local organisations.
15:43 Innovative organisations to bid for money to enable us to innovate and provide some different kinds of offers.
15:55 So there are all kinds of, it's very oversubscribed, but lots of really good ideas and lots of great thinking, which included, for example, a young carer, wanting to set up an app that would be able to capture what mattered most to carers and then also link them into local services and resources.
16:17 There were other examples of people wanting to set up peer support and and and kind of local groups.
16:28 So I guess it was just giving. It was, the strategy was very, co-produced. It was developed with people.
16:38 The ideas that came out of that were very much responding to what people felt they needed and what would be most helpful to them.
16:46 So that that ranged from sort of tech technological innovation, if you like to through to that much more relational approach to practise and how we work with people and and and value people.
16:59 So that's just an example of one of the ways that we've approached it in Greenwich.
17:04 Yeah.
17:04 Thank you.
17:05 That there's something so powerful there about trying to make sure we get to the humanity of all of this. And of course, you know, innovation measuring the success of innovation is really hard.
17:18 In any event, trying to do so whilst also prioritising humanity and relationships which can feel so intangible is really hard.
17:27 What are you looking for?
17:30 In terms of the outcomes of some innovation that would say to you Hey, Yeah, This has been a success. This is helpful.
17:36 Well, I think in terms of the outcomes that we're looking for, the outcomes have to be what works for carers.
17:45 So what enables them to continue to feel supported and to do the really important job that they do?
17:51 I think people's experience is equally important, the outcome, if you like.
17:57 That goes back to that relational practice and how we work with people.
18:03 I think it's, as I say often, the sort of help that people need might not be, particularly that might not cost a lot of money.
18:12 It might be just a relatively small resource that's needed, to enable somebody to to feel valued and to feel that they're able to continue caring.
18:23 So I think that experience and that kind of system, which is that humanist approach, if you like, is really important in terms of people's experience.
18:35 I think in terms of the outcomes, you know, there are sort of outcomes for our system.
18:43 If you like really in terms of, you know how, the support that we offer to carers enables people to live in their own homes for longer and those sorts of things.
18:54 But I think ultimately, the most important outcomes have to be defined by unpaid carers themselves.
19:04 And what works for them. And what's, how the support is actually making a difference in their lives?
19:12 Those are the kinds of outcomes that I think are most important.
19:15 And we probably don't have sophisticated ways of being able to measure and track that as we perhaps need to. But I think that's where you know some of the innovative ideas that people are coming up with actually do help us, then to collect data in different ways in and collect it in a much more person centred ways and that also then enable us to to understand better what outcomes are for individuals, and then how those are aggregated.
19:49 Yeah, really interesting.
19:50 I mean, there's something about making the user experience really high quality, so that people can share data and reflect on what's going on for them in an individual way and then find a way of bringing that together.
20:04 Probably gonna be more sophisticated than a dashboard, but something that can give you and your colleagues at a senior level a sense of how that's working, at a system level as well.
20:15 I'm just thinking, it can be really exciting to look at all the different ranges of things that technology can do for us.
20:24 And sometimes that assumes that everybody has a smartphone in their hand or they're wandering around with a AVR headset.
20:30 How can we make sure that everyone gets the benefit of innovation?
20:35 Even if they're not necessarily a kind of smartphone native. Well, I think that's a really good point that you raise, and I think that that's something that we all struggle with.
20:46 There is a sort of digital divide, I think, and I think it's really important we don't make assumptions about who does use or who doesn't use technology.
20:55 But not everyone has a smartphone and uses technology in, you know, as if I speak for myself, I probably don't use it to the extent that I might do. So I think as a local authority we and this particularly what came out of some of the work that we were doing during the pandemic, where suddenly digital became much more important, in terms of communication and being able to work with people.
21:30 So we did quite a lot of work to look at a kind of digital inclusion.
21:34 And how could we increase people's digital skills and lessen that digital divide?
21:42 That involved, you know, lots of work in libraries with devices and things that are available to people.
21:48 All sorts of ways of teaching other residents how to use them.
21:57 So I think there are things that we have a responsibility to do to try and lessen that.
22:01 What is that what is kind of described as a digital divide?
22:05 But I think also we have to recognise that not everyone will always use digital channels or digital ways of operating.
22:14 And we have to accept that.
22:17 And we have to, therefore, make sure that our services are accessible for those people that are less kind of with digital skills.
22:32 Does that mean that people can't benefit from innovation? I don't know.
22:35 I've really thought about that question.
22:37 I think that we have to, as I say, as local authorities, we have to accept that we have to have, you know, different ways of accessing services and that has to be the case.
22:53 So there's more we can do to sort of help enable people to to develop and build skills.
22:59 I suppose there's different kinds of innovation as well.
23:01 So digital innovation is one thing that perhaps, you know, some people might not benefit from if they don't, kind of necessarily have those skills. But I think that there are other types of innovation that people ought to be able to benefit from and and whatever.
23:19 As I say, we need to have different ways of people being able to access support and that support being offered in you know, in different multiple channels in different ways.
23:32 Thanks, Sarah.
23:33 Are there any examples of innovation that you've been really inspired by?
23:37 What have you seen?
23:38 And I would take lots of lessons from. I mean, I've seen incredible innovation from carers groups.
23:48 For example, if I think about some of my experience in Camden, where carers got together on different bus routes.
23:56 And you know, all kinds of different ways of thinking about how to connect people.
24:00 I talked a bit earlier about the career strategy that we developed in Greenwich and the kind of as part of that having an innovation pot.
24:12 So there's been some really interesting work.
24:15 I think that's come out of that, for example, some specific research into the barriers that black and brown carers for example experience. And therefore what we might need to do, really, in terms of making sure that our services are inclusive and meet the needs of our very diverse communities.
24:35 So there are, you know, there are those sorts of examples.
24:40 That was also done as a joint strategy.
24:42 So I think that's quite important in terms of making sure the innovation is not in a silo, but is, you know, connected to you know, GPs are often the people who aren't in touch with carers and don't always recognise it.
24:55 But how do you make sure that sharing data and technology is used really in terms of maximising the opportunity for people getting the right care and support, through whichever route they go?
25:11 Then I think you know that there's, you know, great examples of, can I mention Mobilise and the digital ways of being able to connect people up and collect that data and use that to think about what new responses there might need to be for carers.

There's some great examples there, Sarah, of different innovations that you've seen.
25:40 I wonder if you were giving some advice to somebody.
25:43 Who in their authority, was really keen to do something impactful transformational for unpaid carers, but feeling a little bit intimidated by the risk, trying to find the funding for it, trying to procure a service.
25:58 What advice would you have for actually making that happen in practise?
26:04 So I think my advice would be to be bold and to think about the opportunities. And create the space for the thinking.
26:13 And so one of the things I think is really important is co-production with carers.
26:17 What it is that they need and what they want.
26:20 And I think that's part of building a business case, if you like as to what is going to make the difference.
26:25 We know that, you know, supporting carers is actually, you know, really fundamentally vital in terms of enabling people to continue to care. And that relatively small amounts of money can make a big difference which, you know, ultimately saves lots of money down the line.
26:44 So, actually, being able to create space for things like innovation funds is, I think, really important.
26:51 There are lots of creative ways of working with local organisations.
26:56 Sometimes our procurement rules can feel like they're the barrier when actually, you know, the social value act.
27:01 And, you know, different ways of thinking about, you know, the partners that that that you've got, means that you don't necessarily have to think about it in terms of big procurement.
27:14 So I think it's, firstly recognising, really, and valuing unpaid carers and then thinking this has got to be a, you know, almost like a specific and ring fence, part of any kind of strategy around the care and support, and and creating some space to to do that, thinking to work with carers and and and to look at what would make a difference to them.
27:38 And as I say often that's relatively small amounts of money in the scheme of things that can have a massive impact.
27:45 So, yes, there, there's risks.
27:47 It might be a bit of a kind of leap of faith, but the opportunity and the and the benefits are, I think, hugely the reward is there, and so, yeah, I'd encourage people to be bold as I say, make it a priority.
28:03 Thanks, Sarah.
28:04 There's some great , practical suggestions there.
28:08 I wonder in your career have there been any moments where you've wanted to do something?
28:13 But actually, when you get into the weeds of making it happen, it can all feel a bit too much and you've been tempted to give up.
28:20 So I think, so I have I.
28:22 I think there are probably lots of times when I've sort of felt the need to take a risk and a bit of a leap of faith in doing something which is not necessarily tried and tested but feels like, if we keep doing more of the same, we're not really going to move forward.
28:37 So what can we do that's different?
28:39 So one example of that is a piece of work that I did in Camden where we were , building a new supported living scheme, which, you know, had been many, many years.
28:52 As you can imagine, many years in the planning, because these things take a long time.
29:00 And when it is the original idea, you know, it was probably actually getting on 10 years since it was thought about. So you then kind of think about how to make it relevant and the right thing to do now.
29:13 So the plan was to do a sort of fairly traditional, extra care scheme and to commission the support for that scheme, and I asked the kind of service head to think about.
29:25 Well, what could we do differently here? And as a result of that conversation, we Well, we had a visit to her dementia village near Amsterdam.
29:34 And we, and we looked at, how could we introduce a kind of bio model, if you like, into that particular facility that we were developing?
29:45 And that involved quite a lot of very different thinking.
29:48 And actually, the decision to have the service as an in-house service, that which which gave us the opportunity, I suppose, to test and learn and to reiterate as we went along, rather than a kind of external commissioning approach where you've got to specify everything, and you're in a kind of contractual position.
30:07 So it took a lot of hard work and a lot of convincing from different parts of the council, for example, about how we went about recruiting to that scheme, because we wanted to do it on a values based recruitment model rather than the way that the council traditionally operated.
30:24 So it was a constant having to ask the question about how we can do this differently?
30:30 And are we doing this differently?
30:31 Every sort of step of the way, if you like, and that can be quite difficult.
30:36 I think in that particular example the broader environment, in terms of that the way that the local authority was moving and thinking about services more broadly, the conditions were quite favourable.
30:52 So, although it was hard work and we had to do quite a lot of convincing of people, it also felt like we kind of got there in the end.
30:59 I'm trying to.I can't think of an immediate example where it's we've got. I don't think I've ever quite given up.
31:05 Actually, I think there are, I think, for examples where I've not made as much progress as I would have liked to and and then, you know, sometimes you get the opportunity to go back to something and sort of try again to it and move it forward and make progress. But I think that, yeah, there are undoubtedly lots of barriers to being able to run things in the way that one would ideally like to and things get in the way like pandemics and the focus in the system changes.
31:36 So you're then looking at a different problem when actually, you were trying to develop something over here and then that all the focus and attention is on discharge from hospital or something, and that can be quite a distraction.
31:49 I'm not sure that I've answered your question, Really?
31:52 But that's not me I think you really have particularly, putting that timescale.
31:57 You know that?
31:58 Well, you said earlier you really focus on the opportunity and being bold.
32:04 And actually, if that might mean that we're thinking in a 10 year timescale for some of those big , radical projects is about sticking with it and really seizing on to the size of that opportunity.
32:16 Well, sticking with it, there's something about resilience in there, which I think is really valuable.
32:25 So we're looking at the CQC, introducing their assurance and including in that the provision of support for unpaid carers for the first time.
32:34 I wonder whether you've got a sense of what the implications of that might be for authorities.
32:39 Well, I think there are big implications.
32:41 Obviously more broadly for local authorities in terms of the introduction of CQC assurance.
32:48 I think there's a lot of anxiety amongst my colleagues about what you know how that's gonna go, what it's going to look like and what it's going to mean for them.
32:56 And that's in the context where we've had, you know, national discussions around, or national media coverage of offs and some of the impact that that's had on services.
33:07 So there's a lot of nervousness.
33:08 I would say more broadly, I think in terms of your question, in relation to to carers, one of the things I think is positive about the way CQC have approached the assurance framework is that, coproduction has has been very much at the heart of, the way that they've developed the framework.
33:26 They've developed it very much with people who draw on care and support, and that that co-production and the voice of carers is I think, reflected in the assurance framework as something which is important and and and, and hopefully that will be a you know, a strong theme when CQC are looking at assurance, looking at assurance of authorities to look at how they are incorporating and and listening to incorporating the voice, but really listening to to, unpaid carers not only those that engage with services but also those that, perhaps are not engaging.
34:01 And how do you reach those people?
34:03 I mean, I do think one of the limitations if you like, or issues that that there is going to be in terms of how the, the assurance framework and implementation of that flows out is is that a lot of it is going to be based on data analysing data from different local authorities and what's produced nationally, which I think is, you know, we probably don't collect the data that that we would need really to get a true picture.
34:32 The CQC framework is something which needs to be updated.
34:43 We know that all of these things take quite a lot of time to make sure that we're collecting the right things that really do focus on what are the outcomes for people.
34:54 Then actually, getting those systems in place takes time for the data to be flowing and to be reliable and effective.
35:02 So I mean, I think one of the consequences of that in terms of what that might mean is that that your local data, in a local authority and how you can evidence what you're doing locally is going to be really important because there will be limitations as to what the national data will tell you or will tell CQC.
35:20 Indeed.
35:20 So being able to build that case and that evidence of the work you're doing locally and what, how you can demonstrate how we as local authorities can demonstrate the difference that we're making, with evidence is going to be important, I think.
35:36 Yeah, absolutely.
35:37 And I think we're seeing that with a lot of the authorities that we're working with.
35:41 Sarah, just a quick last question because you've been very generous with your time.
35:46 I wonder how you personally keep on top of everything that's going on in social care that there's so much going on at the moment.
35:54
How do you make sure that you're abreast of the latest developments ahead of the curve?
35:59 Getting the pulse of those exciting innovations that are happening around the country?
36:06 Well I think it's really difficult to keep on top of everything because, as you say, there is so much going on.
36:10 I think sometimes being too much in the detail of everything that's going on, you can lose the kind of, what's what's the main thing here or what?
36:20 What is it that we're we're we're trying to do?
36:23 Which I think goes back to that kind of relational approach to how do we have systems that are kind of human centred?
36:31 I guess, having said that, I do try to keep on top of things as much as I can. I mean, I think talking to people is always really interesting and really informative.
36:44 So, you know, and I've been privileged really, obviously, as president of ADASS to see lots of things going on right across the country which are so hugely impressive and amazing.
36:56 Be that, you know, some of the work that some of the branches do, or work that's going on in particular local authorities.
37:04 So you know, thinking about how we can use data more to have a much more preventive approach and proactive approach to care and support that you know, the things that you talk of.
37:20 You talk just now about sticking with it.
37:22 But those things that that, you know, we've we've always wanted to do but never quite get there.
37:26 How do we know, there are examples.
37:28 I think where people are looking at data and using data to think about. Well, if you know, what I can see in this data is that these people are likely to need care and support in the next 12 years or whatever.
37:39 And how can we intervene earlier in order to help reduce delay, et cetera, all the kind of care act principles that that that we are trying to deliver on.
37:51 so I think so.
37:53 I think there are conversations with people and actually seeing some of the amazing innovation that's going on right across the country.
37:58 That just being one example is hugely rewarding and inspiring, really In terms of what people are trying to do.
38:09 Across the country, You know, despite, as you said at the beginning it can feel like it's all a crisis.
38:17 People are feeling very stretched.
38:20 And as I say, there are real challenges and barriers, but within that there are, , lots of people working in care and support who do an amazing job every day of the week.
38:31 But also amazing work going on to really think about how we innovate and how we change how we think about not just having more of the same, but actually innovating and thinking differently about how care and support can be in the future.
38:48 Isn't it interesting?
38:49 Sarah, you mentioned at the beginning of this conversation the importance of peer networks for carers.
38:54 And maybe what you're describing is the same for those of us who work in social care as well, having a community of people who we can learn from, support each other and motivate each other as well.
39:07 Sarah, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast.
39:09 It's been a real treat to hear from you.
39:10 Thank you, Thank you.
39:13 Oh, that was fantastic.
39:14 There's some really good reminders that being innovative isn't a new thing that we've suddenly started doing.
39:20 It's a lifelong thing that we're always looking forward to, wanting to make progress and often recognising that in changing times.
39:28 We need to respond differently and try new things.
39:32 And also there are times when we need to stick with it, build resilience into our work so that innovation doesn't just become this all.
39:38 Let's just keep trying new things.
39:41 But I'm wondering, how can we make sure that small pots of funding for innovation that you know might be out there can be used to do more than just try a new thing?
39:50 James, what do you think?
39:51 How do we get that really transformational?
39:54 Well, I think one of the really interesting challenges is to move away from the idea of just digitising a process, so taking the way the world works now and finding a way of doing it a bit more efficiently.
40:07 Actually, I guess what Sarah was describing was, how do you really reimagine things?
40:13 And, speak to a completely different group of people who you'd never speak to normally about their experience of a service and get their input.
40:22 But you mentioned those small pots there.
40:24 Of course you can.
40:24 You can't do a radical transformation of a whole service with a £10 or £15,000 project.
40:31 But what you can do is test a very specific hypothesis.
40:34 So if you're thinking well, there may be a new way to, to tap into people's experiences or to reach a new group of people.
40:42 Try and focus the project on testing one hypothesis, and that will then give you a data point to justify more funding in the future.
40:50 A bit of a business case for that, and you can build on it as you go along.
40:53 Mm sounds helpful.
40:55 Just sort of building those things into, , the future, really testing those small things out, seeing what works and building on that success now, sometimes we can feel that the system prevents that innovation.
41:08 But Sarah's not one of those.
41:10 She really helpfully points out how much scope there is.
41:13 And she points out how the care act, for example, gives us that real scope to try new approaches to deliver the things that make a difference for carers.
41:21 It really encourages that personalised human approach that seeks to understand and value individuals.
41:27 So it's really great that actually the system is set up in many ways to work well for innovation.
41:32 And similarly, she shared thinking about the potential positive impact of the CQC assurance framework.
41:39 So given the co-production approach being taken and how carers voices are already included in, that it could lead to an even better way of understanding, impact and the data we have to evidence that so she had a real sense of hope that will all be able to demonstrate the difference we're making in a more local way rather than just the more maybe current restrictive data collection of the current ASCOF framework.
42:0 So, yeah, it's all there's a real sense of hope there.
42:05 Do you share that, James, that the CQC framework could be a force for good?
42:09 Yeah, I think it could be really powerful, actually.
42:12 I mean, my background is in teaching originally.
42:14 And, goodness me, Ofsted , struck fear into me all the time.
42:21 And you know, actually, any regulatory involvement should be challenging, , and stretching.
42:32 Now it needs to be done in the right way.
42:34 And I think Ofsted have demonstrated that you know that there's a real challenge around culture of making this constructive and, you know, a really positive development.
42:44 Crucially, though I think what CQC assurance does is it takes those things that all of us working in adult social care would like to see more co-production, more involvement, more evidence of feedback going into how we shape the system and actually gives a really strong business case.
43:02 So, you know, why are we going to all of the effort of doing this?
43:05 Well, it's not because it's a nice thing that we tack on at the end of a process.
43:09 Actually, we have a really important duty to be doing that.
43:13 That's reflected in the Care Act.
43:15 And now the CQC assurance will be required,, , all of us to evidence that in one way or another sounds that good news.
43:22 And hasn't it been great just opening up these conversations. Looking at the innovation that's already happening as well as all the potential for the future?
43:30 I found it really interesting.
43:32 So thank you, everyone for joining us.
43:33 I hope you found it just as interesting as we have.
43:36 And I'm really looking forward to more.
43:38 And I hope you'll join us again soon for the next one.
43:40 Take care.
43:40 Bye.
43:41 Bye bye.
43:42 Thanks for joining us with Carer Catalysts brought to you by Mobilise.
43:46 Do subscribe to this podcast wherever you normally get them from and look forward to the next episode.